Panel: Training with International Rules
Mark Casse, John Gosden, and Jessica Harington

STUART S. JANNEY: Our next segment will focus on the durability of the breed, medication rules, and drug testing, both here and abroad.

We're going to hear from prominent trainers who have competed at the highest levels in the international arena.

Mark Casse has been training horses for more than 40 years and was elected to the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in May. Unfortunately, due to COVID-19, his induction ceremony will not take place this year, but rather next year.

He has won the Canadian Sovereign Award for outstanding trainer 12 times and is a member of the Canadian Racing Hall of Fame.

He has trained four Eclipse Award winners, including Tepin, who beat the boys in the 2015 Breeders’ Cup Mile and then won the Queen Anne Stakes at Royal Ascot the following year.

John Gosden, who has won more than 3,500 races around the world and trained countless champions and group 1 winners, most recently, the remarkable mare, Enable.

John enjoyed a very successful training career in the United States in the 1980s in California, where he trained champions Bates Motel and Royal Heroine.

Jessica Harrington is a top Irish trainer in both flat racing and steeplechase. She is perhaps best known as the trainer of Moscow Flyer, who won ten grade 1 steeplechase races.

She also saddled group 1 winner Albigna to a fourth-place finish in the 2019 Breeders’ Cup Juvenile Fillies Turf at Santa Anita.

We are honored to have all of you with us today.

Matt Iuliano, our executive vice president and executive director of The Jockey Club, will host this discussion.

Take it away, Matt.

MATT IULIANO: Something, at least a topic that we read about in social media and the popular press is that the Thoroughbred of today is just not quite as durable or hardy as the Thoroughbred of just maybe 20 or 30 years ago.

I wanted to know if you've seen any evidence of such a trend?

JOHN GOSDEN: It's a fair question, because there is no doubt that if you go back in time, horses were bred very much to race, and they're under pretty spartan rules of good old-fashioned Darwinism, to the extent that if there was a flaw in a family, a breeder would try and eradicate it. If a filly for instance had a breathing problem, he would tend not to breed from her. If they were very soft-boned, very unsound, likewise. You look at old breeders like Elmendorf, you look at Fred Hooper. They bred very tough horses back at Claiborne back in the old days.

But what happened I think from 1980 onwards was a lot of people started breeding for the sales and not to race, and therefore certain weaknesses were tolerated because it was a well-bred filly related to this and maybe a stallion had got away with it.

The greatest example the great stallion Danzig, who didn't win a stake, but he became a great stallion. It was quite interesting to note that the influence of breeding for the sales, that the sale day of the yearling becomes its Derby or Oaks day. It's driven a lot of breeding probably in the wrong direction, in quite a commercial direction.

JESSICA HARRINGTON: I would agree with that totally.

You know, I remember years ago I went out with Johnny to Australia, and this would be in the late '70s. Then they were just breeding horses to race and people didn't correct their yearlings. They were brought up on hard ground probably surrounded by a barbed wire, most of them. They arrived at the sales and they were probably crooked, but people didn't mind.

I think the other thing, it's become a beauty contest at the sales and the horses, if they're not correct, the agents and the people looking at them will take them off lists.

And as we know, and John knows more than I do because I haven't been at it for very long, that a lot of
owner-breeders will send you horses that they couldn't sell at the sales because they weren't correct, but yet they're very good race horses.

Wouldn't you agree with that, John?

JOHN GOSDEN: Very much. I always remember years ago being in sitting in a shed room about 4:30 in the morning. This horse came up. I said, “God that horse is so crooked in front.” It had just won a grade 1, and there is no doubt that a lot of the best horses I trained have been incorrect and would've been literally struck off the list of the sale.

I think that is probably the one negative influence we've seen, the impact of the sales on the breeding of horses.

MARK CASSE: A lot of it has become the sales. In the U.S. we have a little different deal than maybe you do in Europe. I can remember when I started training 40 years ago. First I want to go back, Matt, and say, well, the reason, if you'll read most things why they say that our horses aren't as tough as they used to be is because we don't get as many starts.

There's a lot of reasons why we don't get as many starts. Seabiscuit started 35 times as a 2-year-old. If we did that, social media, they would crucify us. So that's part of it. The other thing I believe is that we've gotten too worried about our win percentages. Trainers don't run their horses as much because they want the right spots.

When I started training 40 years ago, Kentucky didn't even have a turf course. Nowhere. So now we have turf, we've got dirt, we have Tapeta.

Honestly, and I'm going to upset a lot of people when I say this, but probably the thing that has hurt our breed the most in the U.S. is the programs, the state programs.

I think, you know, that there are stallions and mares that are being used as broodmares and stallions, that if we didn't have a local program, they would never cut the mustard.

The other thing — you know, I run a lot of horses. I would say to you this: For me, I'll start somewhere about 1,000 horses a year, starts. And to start those 1,000 starts, I'll have to enter probably 4,000 times. It now makes more sense to have a cheap claimer. And so a lot of the good horses sit there and don't get to run.

I would venture to say my good horses could run 30 to 40% more times than they actually get to run. So I think I that's part of it as well.

John and Jessica are correct. I think we worry too much now about the sales. Not long ago I went on a clenbuterol crusade. Clenbuterol is a drug that's being used — not being used for the reason it's meant to be. It's being more for an anabolic steroid.

And I was amazed of the response I got back from how many people were using it on their yearlings. It increases muscle mass, but more importantly, it decreases bone density. They'll end up with tibia fractures, this and that.

I'm like, “What is going on here?” I think they're stressing them too much prior to the sales. And Jessica is right. And John. Let the horses be horses.

I also have — I also train for breeders. Live Oak, John Oxley, Tracy Farmer. Those horses, when I get them, stay sounder longer and keep running, and so I think there is something to be said about that.

MATT IULIANO: You would attribute at least a part of that to the fact that those horses are turned out, they're allowed to mature and develop along their natural pace.

MARK CASSE: I think Jessica said, it's not a beauty contest. I had a guy named Harry Mangurian of Mockingbird Farm. We were the leading breeder. I was the general manager. We were the leading breeder five years in a row in the U.S.

There wasn't a horse that we had that we took to the sale or ran that didn't have some scar that wasn't stitched up that hadn't, you know, jumped on something.

Now, I think there is too much hot housing. I just, I think that's a big part of it. But the reason we're not getting the starts without a doubt in the U.S. that we used to - now, I can't speak for Europe - is because we don't have the races. The races don't fill.

A lot of times you may have a good maiden that you're wanting to run. I went to California sometime ago with three exceptional maidens I wanted to run long; couldn't get the race to go. But the California-bred race would go once a week.

Doesn't work.

MATT IULIANO: That's a good transition into kind of the second broad area that I would like to explore with each of you, and that is your thoughts on just the sport itself. How have your training programs evolved to keep pace with a more demanding and lengthier racing training schedule with an eye toward the health and safety of the horse.

JESSICA HARRINGTON: They almost tell you when they're ready. You can't force them. So your backward ones, you're not going to run early.

So as 2-year-olds, I think they more or less find their own space. This year we had a very strange time because we didn't actually start running until June, so it was even more strange.

But I think when you get to the 3-year-old and you're trying to work out a campaign for a three year old, I mean, I don't know, John will probably disagree with this, but I find the horses will tell you.

Whether they're 2-year-olds or 3-year olds, they all come in their own time and you can't force them. At least I find them you can't force them to be ready early when they're not going to want to be ready early.

MATT IULIANO: John, would you agree with that?

JOHN GOSDEN: Yeah, I agree totally with that. The thing is, you watch, you feel whenever a young horse comes to you. Yes, you can study the pedigree, but doesn't mean the pedigree is always right, but it's not a bad starting point.

It's their strength, their weakness, their movement, their mental maturity. I think it's the whole point of my training, a lot it is entirely feel. You can't sort of quantify it, and the most stupid thing you can ever do with a horse is start pushing too soon. If you don't wait for them to come then you'll usually ruin them.

Our seasons change. If I go back to the California days, you know, basically you had Del Mar and that was it.
Nothing happened. If you wanted to run, you went to Longacres or to Bay Meadows or somewhere.

But then came the Oak Tree meeting, which is a wonderful meeting, and then suddenly we had the Hollywood Fall meeting.

So our season started on the 26th of December. We call it Boxing Day, and it rolled all the way through to December 24th at Hollywood Park. So what you learn as they do in Australia, you have to back off horses, bring them back, back off. Don't just keep relentlessly going.

But it's the same thing here. Here we train with the climate. Say we are having a wet, cold spring with east winds. The colts can deal with it better than the fillies, and you have to be careful that you don't go and stress them in any way when it's nasty.

You have to be sympathetic with them, and then of course suddenly you get into summer and they get their summer coats; and then likewise, if you've been on them early in the spring you need back off a little in the summer if you want to have an autumn campaign.

And then of course you have the Breeder's Cup, and so many European trainers made the mistake with their horses — started doing half-speed work. They ran them March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October.

By the time they got to the Breeder's Cup, naturally they were over the top, possibly mentally stale more than anything.

So we have learned as trainers to go with the rhythm of our seasons. As Mark says, don't be tempted to over-race. But how frustrating as a trainer to be training a horse with something like a maiden and you can't even get the maiden to go with enough runners.

That must be heart breaking, because you're bringing a horse up to race and not running it.

MATT IULIANO: Were there techniques that you apply as to keeping a horse fresh and keeping them at least peak of their conditioning whenever that time comes.

MARK CASSE: Every horse is different, Matt, and I would say that the three of us here that you're talking to, we had the luxury of — I know I do and I'm sure John and Jessica have the same luxury in that I have wonderful owners that let us, let me decide when and what I want to do.

Yes, we do run year-round, but you won't see a horse of ours that will run year-round. Very rarely. We give them time off. We have a big training center in Ocala. We bring them home; we freshen them up.

Every horse is different. You have to listen to the horses. And like I said, I'm fortunate enough that when a horse says he needs time, I make a phone call and say, “We're going to give him time” and they'll say, “Okay.”

And that's what we'll do.

MATT IULIANO: That's the best advice. Last year, for example, well over one half of the claiming races in the
U.S. valued the horse much less than the winner's share of the purse.

Has the time come for a wholesale shift in the U.S. away from claiming, and perhaps more to a ratings type system as we see overseas with weight assignments?

MARK CASSE: This is a loaded question. No doubt, no doubt. You know, our breed and everything about our game I believe is trying to develop good horses and better horses.

I mean, when we have these yearling sales, they're not selling these horses to become a $10,000 claimer. No, they want to win the Kentucky Derby or, you know, being something like that.

And as I was saying prior, I have better horses and the races don't go. You can't run them. But you have — if you look at what makes the most sense right now in the United States or in North America, is that — have a $10,000 claimer, you can run every two weeks and make it make sense; something is wrong with the system.

I also believe that's where we're seeing more injuries, we're seeing more deaths. And, yeah, it needs to be looked at and it needs to be changed. Do I have the answer to how to change it? No.

MATT IULIANO: Yeah. Well, that's certainly true. We've seen the statistics just as you've said. They tend to — a lot of the racing fatalities that are booked into the Equine Injury Database are associated with that race type.

JESSICA HARRINGTON: We claim over here after the race. Sounds a bit strange, but they get claimed after the race, and the person who does claim them then has to remove them that evening, so they have to be quite well organized to do it.

But they are claimed for up to 20 minutes after the race. It's an Irish solution to an Irish problem, I think.

MATT IULIANO: Sure. Sure. One of the issues or I should a perhaps barriers of transitioning into a different system with claiming races has been just ratings.

If it were to go in that direction, use the ratings-based approach as just the number of handicappers that are available to rate every start for every horse.

Would you see that as a substantial barrier to that type of transition in the U.S., or is it something that perhaps we could do automated?

JOHN GOSDEN: The handicap system is what we use here in France and Ireland. A lot of trainers allow themselves to be controlled too much by the system, so they try and get the horse in at the lowest rating and then creep up rather than necessarily let the horse express itself and go on.

Having said that, it has a certain egalitarianism to it. But at the same time, you know, the claiming system does work to a degree. You know, there is a rationale to it. Obviously it doesn't work in Europe because you're allowed to claim after the race which makes the whole thing a complete joke.

I notice you have optional claimers now in order to fill allowance races. It's tough, because the only time you really used to weight horses in graded stakes in America, which in itself is extraordinary. I remember Laz Barrera trying to turn the desk over on the racing secretary at Saratoga for allotting Affirmed 130 pounds. Shoemaker would always tell me that the weights, they only matter after 118 or 120.

So, look, we have a handicap system here. It works, but I find it restrictive, but I prefer it to the claiming system. Of course I do. Then guys Bobby Frankel made their name through the claiming system. I think it's shouldn't be quite be how it controls American racing, and I think there is a certain sickness when the race is worth more than the horse. That is not a pretty situation.

MATT IULIANO: The horses that are overseas, and again, using Lasix, as an example, they use just as much just as frequently. The only difference being that they suspend treatments much earlier before the race, 48 hours before the race in the example of Lasix, as opposed to four hours before the race over in the U.S., here in the states.

JOHN GOSDEN: Yeah. Okay, I trained — obviously it's 30 years since I was in the States. Quite frankly in California you had Bute and Lasix. There wasn't really anyone using much else. Maybe they would use an estrogen sometimes for a bleeder.

And they have a therapeutic use. There is no doubt. If you have a horse that bleeds, if you're able to erase it on Lasix, the chances are it wouldn't show any hemorrhage in the larynx. When they start bleeding out the nose, that's a whole different world.

I mean, but I could see and I knew with Charlie Whittingham and all the trainers there it was legal. And Bute for some horses. Not many. I wasn't a great believer in it, but some horses benefited from it, particularly if they were getting on a little bit, and rather like us getting out of bed in the morning arthritis was showing.

As regards to the use of those drugs, I understood why they were used. I don't know, it seems that there are extraordinarily drugs being used by vets there, and we don't need to talk about the recent scandals, but some of these things I don't know what they are, but anything of that nature should be absolutely stamped out.

You were asking about racing in Europe. I will, probably from my American background, if I have a horse who is a really bad bleeder and I'm coming to a major workout 10 days before the race, I may well administer Lasix to that horse 10 days ahead of the race.

I don't use Bute much at all. I'm not very keen on it. I feel if the horse needs time, it needs time. I'm not a great user of that. I don't really believe in it. That is the only way I would use it.

The idea — where we get into a problem, and I'm only talking about Lasix here, because I don't know about any other drugs that are meant to being used and being accused of being used in the Maximum Security scandal and everything else.

But I do know there has to be an issue in this day and age to know that a horse, the night before the race, let alone the morning of the race, this is an athlete in a competition, is actually permitted to have an intravenous injection. One could be an anti-inflammatory the night before, and the other can be a diuretic the day of the race.

Now, it's a little hard to think of any other athlete in any sport that that would be tolerated. And I think the problem exists in America, and I do get the kindness that something like Lasix can bring to a bleeder and that therapeutic use. But I think that it's a problem that occurs.

They come to Dubai and we had runners at Ascot. American horses come; they race without medication. And that is why you might want to talk — I think it's correct to have out-of-racing, out-of-training testing. Because if you're doing things correctly it'll be in your medical book, each horse's records.

I do think it's something in America that's going to have to be cleaned up. It's hard to get that message over. I remember Daryl Hannah, the actress. Steel Magnolias was in the early '90s. Was debuted here. Ray Stark produced it.

So I went to this dinner; I sat opposite her. She said, “What do you do?” I said, “Train race horses. Used to be in California. Do you like racing?” “No, no. No, I don't. They use drugs. I like riding my horse on the ranch, on the farm.” I thought, “Whoa, that's a different thinking to the old Hollywood actors who probably wouldn't have thought in those terms.”

You know, good old Carey Grant and Mickey Rooney screaming up and down because he had lost the daily double. I don't think they worried too much about that. But you can understand we're in a different era now. It's a different world, and I think we have to open our eyes to that.

There are arguments on both sides, but certainly it's something that needs to be got hold of it, but how you can do it with all the different state legislatures, I have no idea.

MATT IULIANO: Jessica, I know you've had a very successful career, both flats and over the jumps. Do you see this type of medication issue arising in any of the horses that you've been associated with?

JESSICA HARRINGTON: I basically will use medication as therapeutic. If they have — I would not — Bute I've only used when we've got an injury and you want to keep the horse comfortable.

I'm a great believer in other, using other forms of medication. You know, not medication, other forms of keeping the horses right, between massages and rubs and ice and boots and magnesium and try to keep the muscles right and keeping them mentally in a good place without pain.

You know, jumpers do damage themselves a lot more than flat horses. But you don't want to be — the main thing with jumpers, you do not want to be covering up any sign of any injury with drugs, because you end up with a catastrophic injury rather than just something that you can see every day.

And I think that's the way I've gone very much. So not to go away from drugs. Yes, Lasix I will use if I think I have a bad bleeder, but I would use it at least a week before they're actually going to run.

But even, again, there, I would rather use putting the horses — have them living outside, dust-free environment, and hope that that helps them.

MARK CASSE: You know, Jessica brought up a good point in that a dust-free environment would always be nice. Of course, you know, it's a little different here in the U.S. than it is in Europe.

I do believe — John may disagree with this — I do believe that dirt probably stresses horses a little more than turf. We scope every horse after it runs and after it works, so we have a pretty good idea. I know that horses bleed worse on dirt. I've been a pro-Lasix guy for a long time.

I'm not as strong as on it as I used to be. My concerns have always been, you know, there's different people out there that think, “Okay, we're going to give Lasix at 48 hours,” they may not give them anything to eat and drink for 48 hours. That is my concern. What are they going to do instead of it, so that's always been a concern.

My concern is more — and John alluded to do this somewhat — there are a lot bigger problems out there in the
U.S. than Lasix, and it has to be fixed. I'm personally so fed up with it. I question how long I want to continue to even train. We're not sending as horse training — I know I'm not; I don't think Jessica or John — we're not sending a man or a woman to the moon. We're not rocket scientists.

But we see crazy things happening often, and I commend The Jockey Club, 5 Stones for going out — I mean, everybody knew things weren't right, and it turned out we found that. You found that, and I felt better. I appreciate that. I thought it was one of the greatest things The Jockey Club could do.

I hope they don't stop there, because there are more bad apples out there. I think when I they find the bad apples, they don't need to be slapped on the hand; they need to be thrown out and be done with.

As far as Lasix goes, you know what? I'm fine. Like the Bute, I'm with Jessica and John. I don't care if I ever use another Bute shot. I don't need it. I find that if you need that for your horse to run, you shouldn't be running.

You know, and we can get around the Lasix. We can do it. Then it goes back — so much of what's happened, especially recently, is I think with the younger generation, there are not as many horsemen. There are more drugs and more things being used, and we got to get away from that.

That's not good for our industry in any shape or form. My one concern is this, and I've seen it up close and personal, is you make rules, but we can make all the rules in the world, but if there is not somebody out there policing those rules, the bad guys just get that much stronger.

Because we're not going to — John is not going to do it; Jessica is not going to do anything; I'm not going to do anything to cross the line, but there are many, many out there that will.

It's a disadvantage to us, and it's not fair to the men and women that want to play by the rules. I told my son, I have a 17-year-old son. I was recently elected to the Hall of Fame and I told him. He said, “Dad, what's that mean?”

I said, “That means you can do things right and still get it done with dignity.” Because through this game you're going to have to decide what's more important, winning at all cost, or your dignity.

MATT IULIANO: That's a great perspective. And certainly can add to that list of people that appreciate the claiming competition are the bettors.

MARK CASSE: Yeah. And what's happening now, Matt, in the U.S. is, it's — all at once you see a horse change.
We have patterns and we have forms, and every time you get now where they're betting on the form reversal because some new trainer has it that is winning at some ungodly amount, and two of those are now looking at jail time.

MATT IULIANO: Is medication policy somehow creating an unintended consequence similar to what we discussed at the start of this, and is there a relationship that's developed where perhaps the decisions and the breeding shed, which would've normally been directed at trying to eliminate something, is simply being masked.

JOHN GOSDEN: I suppose the fact when I come to the September sales now or Saratoga, I don't know the families like I used to. I don't know the farms. I remember looking at horses of old Mr. Nerud years ago, Tartan Farms. As Mark was saying earlier, this horse came out and he was sunburned and scratches everywhere. We said, “Boy, he's been reared properly.” You know, those great breeders of that era, they knew their game well.

And you would know from certain families and certain farms where you stood, whether that farm was in Kentucky, in New York, in Florida, or Pennsylvania, or with John Mabee's farms back in those days in California. You knew where you stood when you saw their stock.

Now I go to the sales, it's not that I don't so much know the families as I don't know some of the these horses and what they achieved and how they achieved it. Then I think to myself, “Oh, I wonder what they were running on?”

And the moment you start questioning really the validity and the purity of the result, because then you hear about this training and what happened here and his horse is doing that, and you suddenly realize, “Hang on. This stallion was one of theirs, or the mare was.”

And you think, “How real is this that I'm looking at? These might have been reared properly, but what were they racing on?” We're not just talking about Bute and Lasix here.

I think that becomes — it's rather like a counterfeit coinage. It becomes a worry, the legitimacy of the whole thing, and I think it's something that I hope American racing can get hold of and sort out. There is no doubt it does undermine the integrity of the sport.

MATT IULIANO: Those are great points. Thank you.

Jessica, I know you have experienced incredible success both as a rider and a trainer of horses both in flats and over the jumps.

I'm very interested in understanding how your background as a very accomplished rider has helped you in training.

JESSICA HARRINGTON: Not really sure.  When I look at a horse I probably wonder — for a long time I went on riding the horses even when I was training them and I would know what they would feel, and now I stand on the ground and only look. I've learnt how to look.

How has it helped me? I suppose I like horses. I'm probably just looking at them the whole time. I probably do things a little bit different to most trainers because I'm a mixed yard. I have yearlings and 2-year-olds, 3-year-olds, colts, jumpers, three-mile chasers, all on the same lot. Nothing is segregated from one lot to another. It all just depends on who is riding what.

They go out and they trot. They all have to trot. I like horses to be able to trot and able to move. Then they basically all do the same work, although they're a yearling, a 2-year-old, a 3-year-old, or a three-mile chaser, they all do the same basic work. They all canter.

I'm lucky enough to have all my own gallops here, three different gallops. They basically all do the same work.
You know, sometimes less and sometimes more. Jumpers will do a couple more circuits, but they all end up doing the same thing.

The thing I find the best with the fact that I have a mixed lot is, especially when the yearlings come in, A, they've have got to get used to my three dogs, which follow me everywhere.

They learn because they start jumping around, but the other horses aren't jumping around, and so they sort of say, “Well maybe we're not allowed to do that.” And I find that they learn manners very quickly.

And also when they go out to gallop, the older horses, I just sort of walk and trot on to the gallop and they don't pay any attention.

So I think from at that point of view I'm probably a little bit different. I'm not too worried whether there are colts or fillies beside each other. I kind of let them be unless they're behaving badly. I don't physically say, “If you're a colt you got to be over there.” I let them all muddle along together. I don't know whether it's right or wrong, but it kind of works so I've let everything be.

I am lucky in the fact that they come straight out of stable and onto the farm and there is no big gap between going out and doing something. So we can — from that point of view, it's very handy here.

MATT IULIANO: What can we do to ensure the competency and the training of our horsemen and horsewomen today?

MARK CASSE: That's a tough one. Definitely, like we talked about earlier, drug — it seems just easier. Instead of being a horseman, it's more doing this or doing that more with drugs. That's unfortunate and we have to get away from it.

As far as what can we do, I don't know. I think the owner has to say that. Does he feel comfortable? Where did this guy come from? Most of the successful trainers out there right now in the U.S. though, they came up under some big people. I really don't know, Matt. I don't know that I have a real answer or solution for that.

MATT IULIANO: Is it time that we have as a condition of licensure something more aggressive than just a standard continuing education program?

MARK CASSE: Probably wouldn't hurt. New York said that they were going to — I think you had to do four hours every year to get your trainers license of continuing education. I actually watched the four hours of video and actually learned a few things and found it very interesting.

What we need and what we have to have is a body that governs all of North America. It's the most confusing mess that you'll ever see.

Like I said, we are making a lot of rules. There have been a lot of things changed. Some of us went to — now, you know, they're examining your horses. Never hurts. Got a few people a little bent out of shape, but if you can get two more eyes that look at your horse, it's not a bad thing.

California has done it. Because there are trainers outs there that are sending horses out to — not so much run, because our horses are examined before they run, but they're not examined before they train.

We have had a lot of training mishaps. As I think Jessica was saying, like we jog all our horses every day before they go out and train. They have to come jog, and doesn't matter whether they're with me or any of my assistants.
That's one of our protocols.

I don't think there is enough of that done. Yeah.

MATT IULIANO: Very good. Again, I want to thank each of you for just taking time out of your busy schedules to discuss some of these very critical issues going on right now in the United States as it related to each of those topics.

So I will bid you all a good afternoon and a good evening. Thanks again. Thank you very much.

STUART S. JANNEY: Thank you to our trainers and Matt for a very interesting discussion. There is no question that international racing is becoming a much larger and more important part of racing in the United States. In fact, the Horseracing Integrity Act calls for international rules in lots of instances. I hope this past discussion will help all of us understand where the sport is going.

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